6 Simple Tools to Engage and Build Classical Music Audiences - with David Taylor

Today we talk with David Taylor all about how we can attract new audiences, engage with them, and get our old audiences coming back. That all has to do with the experiences that we provide all around our concerts: before, after, and during.

Watch the full video of this interview on our Youtube channel.

Learn more about David Taylor at David-Taylor.org

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Transcript

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Jeremy Cuebas: 0:00

Alrighty. Welcome to podium time. We are in our season of building back audiences and today we are joined by David Taylor. David, thank you so much for joining us.

David Taylor: 0:09

It's an absolute pleasure. I'm so excited to be here.

Jeremy Cuebas: 0:11

Great. Could you give us and our listeners a brief overview of who you are and what you do?

David Taylor: 0:18

Yes, it's quite a complicated job. So, um, this is my best shot at it. Um, I'm David Taylor, I'm based in the UK. Um, and I'm passionate about helping people and organizations in the music world thrive, uh, in the modern, modern age. So that's a mixture of coaching and consulting. Uh, both for students, people who are in the profession, musicians, conductors, and also orchestras operas, arts organizations, everyone big to small, and it's, uh, is quite a privilege to be able to work with such a, a range of people. But I'm, I'm totally fascinated with how we, uh, connect with people in the 21st century, um, how we innovate and change and all the reasons to why we've not been able to change in the past, even though that the world is a, an ever changing place.

Jeremy Cuebas: 1:03

Yeah, I think the best part of that is in the modern world, because I mean, as, as all our listeners, as you know, um, or we, we tend to run maybe a century or two back, and the fact

Luke Lyons: 1:16

little bit

Jeremy Cuebas: 1:18

you know, orchestras, orchestras just starting to post on social media, um, happened a couple only a couple years ago. And just starting to like, figure out how to actually do it correctly is, you know, starting to happen now. So, so thanks so much for being here again, we wanna talk about how we can, you know, move orchestras, like you said, into the modern age and, and really thrive rather than just like, how can we just not close our doors now that you know, we're, we're not totally outta the pandemic, but we're definitely on our way out. Things are starting to get back. We're having regular seasons and in-person concerts. Um, so because I said the theme of the season is building back audiences. Um, what does that, what, what, what comes to mind when you, when you hear that?

David Taylor: 2:06

For me, the there's two sides of the, of the coin for this. The first is trying to attack, attract new audiences, which has been an ever presence conversation for the last few years, even pre-pandemic that we need to get new audiences in, uh, just for making sure we've got, uh, consumer base going forwards, but also in an ideal world, why would you not want to expand to new audiences and get more customers and connect to more people and the benefits of, of making a difference to more people's lives? So on one side, is that sort of relatively traditional conversation of new audiences. Um, but in the post pandemic age, I think it's really fascinating that building back audiences is that are, are previous audiences are not there anymore in the same way we are seeing big dropoffs in, in audiences and, um, apologies for the, the UK reference that is now about to come in. Uh, but the, um, the, the premier league, which is the top league in the, uh, the UK or in the English soccer league, um, they've come back with record breaking audience figures, uh, Glast music festival in the UK, again, record breaking audience figures. And yet in the classical music world, we're seeing significant dropoffs. We are not back to like pre-pandemic levels, despite the fact that sports entertainment and other things are, are certainly bouncing back better than they were before. So I think for me, the other side of that coin is working out why our previous audiences aren't coming back in the way they were before, which is also really fascinating thing to dig into.

Jeremy Cuebas: 3:29

Yeah, I've been challenging people to define what audience we're talking about because the audience that we've been so used to attracting, which is just the same couple hundred subscribers and maybe bringing in families once for a movie concert, like that's not sustainable anymore. And it was barely sustainable before our world got rocked.

David Taylor: 3:52

Totally agree. And, um, I think we're almost seeing the. The consequences or even the residue of our, our bad output pre-pandemic. In essence, the pandemic has just been like a, a circuit breaker. And we're now only seeing the consequences of years of systemic, um, under involvement and under, uh, valuing of how we market, how we connect people and how we adapt as a product. And I think things like sports are always really fascinating to look at and going back to the premier league, those in the nineties, they were bought out by sky sports. And all of a sudden there were cheerleaders and fireworks and like additional things that came along with it. That weren't actually the main thing, but that really helped propel it to having a significantly higher value in turnover. Similarly, with the NFL, that's also been another one where there's been an investment in money and entertainment that goes alongside. Our product hasn't really changed since, uh, realistically, since we decided to start turning the lights down during concerts, um, apart from that, and maybe concert programs, there's not really been that many innovations in the last a hundred and 20 30, 40, 50 years. So I think we've been quite accustomed to not changing. And as a result, there's like a systemic resistance to change. And that's now what we're seeing the, the harsh consequences of going forwards.

Jeremy Cuebas: 5:08

Yeah. Yeah. It's really hitting a lot of groups. Um, but if there's a time to change, this is the time and the information is out there. Like the skills that we need to build are there. Other people have figured it out. It's just that. So people have figured it out for orchestras and what to do with that.

David Taylor: 5:25

Totally agree. And there's so many fantastic stories from other industries that you can really pull on for inspiration, um, I think less so in United States, but the more funding you get from organizations means that there's, there's less of a need to change or be curious about the outside world. And, uh, in essence, if you were getting 2 million pounds a year from or 2 million a year from a government organization, you think that would be like a safety net to go out and do weird stuff. But in reality, it's meant that people are just being rewarded for their bad outputs. For one of a better phrase, they're being rewarded for not thinking outside the box for not evolving for not doing better. And as a result, there's, there's not really that necessity that has driven change for many other organizations in the past. So I think in America, there's, there's certainly more of an impetus for that, but equally the traditional donor model means that if you're pleasing those few people, you're not necessarily taking care of the future as well. So there's that potential balance of how do you find, um, yeah, the need for change when you are rewarded for not changing.

Jeremy Cuebas: 6:26

Yeah. Yeah. What strikes me is it's not just that there's no incentive to search out it's that. And we've had this idea that the incentive actually is to stay in our lane and don't change. Cuz people think if we change too much, we're gonna lose our base and then we'll be gone. But that's, that's just as risky. If not more risky, especially when it's not working.

David Taylor: 6:49

Totally. And when it's been, uh, like that for such a long period of time, it's not just that we're incentivized, it's now our inherent engraved culture. Like this has been not like a 10 year incentive. This is 50, 60 years of culture. We need to change within organizations and actually on a, a global industry level that we need to start being curious about this. Um, so it is quite hard to change those mindsets, uh, to help people, uh, see alternatives, or just generally be curious about what the alternatives could be. Um, and it's not, I, I don't think it's that people are in a bad place with it. Cause they obviously care that they want to go forwards and they, they feel that, uh, change would be, uh, a threat in some cases. But, uh, one of my absolute favorite books and also absolute favorite films is Moneyball. Uh, going into baseball now. So I'm definitely going back onto the us analogies, uh, but there's a great throat frozen there, which is adapt or die. And I think we're, we're now very much at that point and this should be like the bells ringing on the Titanic, like problems are happening. We need to do something. Um, and the longer we procrastinate having a, a conversation about this, the, the worst it's gonna get.

Jeremy Cuebas: 7:54

so let's, let's start that conversation. What are, and maybe, maybe you'll know where to, where to start that better than we will. What can, what is it that you lead orchestras to do when you see somebody struggling and they ask you to help them? You know, what are the first couple things that you look at?

David Taylor: 8:12

Really fascinating question. So I think there's, there's two sides that I look at, but it always comes down to, to one, one core thing. So the two sides are how they connect people in the digital world and how they connect people outside of the concert hall. And the other would be how they connect to people inside the console hall. But the main thing that brings that all together for me is human relationships and we should be completely ignoring absolutely everything else that we do purely for the sole goal of building strong relationships with people. And once you have that connection relationship, you can get people to donate to you. You can get them to come to concerts, you can get into be ambassadors for you. Everything opens up at that point. So for me, that is the sole goal of what we should be doing. And also the key problem that we haven't realized that that is the, the main challenge that we face. Um, for me, a lot of what I do is working in the digital side of things. So, um, Even being brutally honest, a lot of basic best practice when it comes to social media is really fascinating. One of my pet peeves is multimillion pound arts organizations, still putting really long links in Instagram, which you can't click on and it doesn't work. So why would you waste your time doing it? Uh, especially when you can Google five tips and making Instagram better and you can find out within a second. Um, but again, like that idea of like, how do we actually. Not use social media for advertising. No one picks up their phone to look on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok to see a bombardment of adverts saying, come to my thing, come to my thing. So for me, it's trying to identify, how do we change that round? How do you build relationships through digital means how can you give content and value to people? And that's usually where I start off with organizations. Um, a lot of it as well, the, the problem tends not to be necessarily their ideas, but more the working practice behind it. So actually delving into, um, how the organization works, what challenges there are. Um, and I'm yet to find two organizations that work in the same way. That's always quite a fun, fun challenge to dig into, but then also on the concert side, like how can we not just have it, that someone turns up, sits down, listens for a while, gets up and leaves and it's utterly passive. How can we make that into a, an experience that is not only emotive and can build connections, but they can also share with others and they can be empowered to be ambassadors and advocates for.

Jeremy Cuebas: 10:21

So, um, let's start with inside the concert hall. Um, cuz that's where we, we already are. Even if we don't have a presence outside of it, what are, what are some of those things?

David Taylor: 10:32

Yeah, so there's lots and this isn't gonna be in varying levels of disruption. Uh, so do you have a preference for starting with most disruptors or least

Jeremy Cuebas: 10:41

Maybe let's let's start easy. Let's start with least

David Taylor: 10:43

start? Easy.

Jeremy Cuebas: 10:44

let's let's ramp it up.

David Taylor: 10:46

exactly, exactly. So we'll, we'll go for things outside the actual performance experience itself. Um, With events, we, we really only provide a primary experience. So you turn up and there is a performance, and that's the only thing that we offer. Um, one of my great loves is rugby. And so when I've gone to watch, uh, the national team play rugby, there there's multiple levels experience when you go to watch a game. So when you arrive outside the stadium, there is a tertiary, a third level of experience, um, and you arrive and there. Uh, there are X internationals coaching, junior rugby that you can go and watch or playing TIG. Um, there are champagne tents, there's Brahms bands, there's food, there's challenges that you can do with the balls and like do skill things. And that's a whole third ring of this experience. Then you go into the stadium itself and there's a secondary ring of experience, which is more bars and food. Um, social media going around these giant screens going around the whole thing, uh, fireworks, uh, dancing, all these other things. But ultimately everyone goes for a primary experience, which is a world class performance on a stage by elite people. That's kind of the same for us. We go for a primary world class experience on a stage by amazing elite performers, but we don't really have anything else to back it up. And I have a theory that we're not competing for value for money. We're competing for value for time. And that when, um, you have two and a half to three hours on a Friday or Saturday night, what's the best use of your time. And realistically that, even though we are in like recession territory, people still are focusing on that rather than the money side of things. Um, and for us, we have what, a performance and then maybe a really NAF long cue for an interval drink, maybe a precon talk. And that's the only thing we really add so to come full circle to what we can do. Um, I think it's adding things to those tertiary and secondary experiences. So this idea that the concert starts not when the first note starts, but when they not even when they step into the building, but when they see the building or when they have that first touchpoint with use an organization. So that could be on a simple thing. Um, pre-con wine tasting, uh, a series of different musical talks you can go to. So not just the hardcore Sharian analysis of like the Uber nerd thing, which is nothing knocking at all, but that's like, that's for one type of people, an equal, you could have like a complete beginners guide or a, a pre-interview chat with musicians, um, an area to try out instruments for the first time, uh, an exploratory area, art films, information, all those other things. And so for me, that's probably the easiest thing we can do to really play with the idea of what is a concept. Without touching any of the experience of what the concert or the performance side of the concert is. So that means the music still isn't touched the environment isn't touched, but we're adding more to the evening as a whole to make it more valuable. Um, for me, the bend or the things that are most powerful are the things that have personalities and that ability to build connections. So anything with musicians, speaking, connections, um, There's a UK orchestra called the ponia, who are based in London. They launched a gin during the COVID 19 pandemic. So the idea of having like a pre-con gin tasting with the musicians who are there to build those connections is fantastic. Um, there's an auction, the Netherlands, who I can never remember the name of, but they did pre-con speed. I think speed networking would be a more polite term than speed dating, but it was so as many members of the audience got to meet as many members of the orchestra as possible. And therefore, all of a sudden it's like, oh, it's not just a performance it's point by like John who I know and have like a five minute chat to. So I think they're the really exciting things we can really play around with where trying to identify what our audience like, and then reverse engineering, what could be a value or of interest to them to really sort of make the experience in the evening more valuable. So that would be the, uh, the less provocative one. The more provocative is then what can we do with inside the hall to start changing stuff around and, um,

Jeremy Cuebas: 14:45

main course, you mean.

David Taylor: 14:47

exactly. Yeah. So. Again, there's different levels. There could be in the hall itself, but not when the music is playing and then in the hall itself. But when the music is playing. That's then quite difficult to do, but stuff, whether it is then ludicrous, like augmented reality concerts, where you can hold up your phone and see information, uh, digital concert program notes are fantastic, especially if they're the ones that are sync to the music. I'm a huge, huge, huge of those. Uh, I've also had some great success implementing live social media engagement during concerts, uh, and that was with a, a huge screen above the orchestra. And it wasn't as crazy as you, you think by the sound of that, whether it was like a live feed going around while they were playing, but they were encouraged pre-concept to take photos and engage on social media during the performance on this hashtag and that it would be showed at the interval and at the end of the concert. And then all of a sudden they could see their likes and comments in the same way. It was at the sports stadium to see their engagements coming around. Um, and my favorite story from doing it once was with, uh, with a youth orchestra and two group, two families from different sides of the hall realized they were taking photos of their, their own, the same children. And so they, they connected on social media. A whole year went by and for the next concert, 12 months later, both families went for dinner before the same concert. So it is it's, they, they found their own community in a way that was, um, probably impossible before were not really very good within our concert format or as a whole for actually having community opportunities. So that was one of my, sort of more fascinating things. So there's a lot you can do inside, but I know that in some cases that's quite a sacred environment and getting both musicians, performance, and performance and organizations on board to be a part of that's quite difficult and also audiences when they don't want to have that touched as well. Um, so that would be the, the more provocative side of things

Jeremy Cuebas: 16:33

Yeah. Okay. Lot, lot to think about there

David Taylor: 16:38

So that was the, the long one.

Jeremy Cuebas: 16:39

no, that was, that was perfect. Um, I love that. Well, a, a couple of things stand out to me. Um, maybe starting at the end is that we can become a place where other people can build community. And that, that happens a little, you know, that happens in the, in the cliques and the people who already know each other. And, you know, the, the stereotypical rich people who know all their other rich people meeting before the concert, and it's a social thing. They don't actually co care about the concert. Like there's that stereotype. Um, but I love, I love the idea of using cause. So, so often we just, we just sit and do the concert and, you know, maybe some people could meet by accident, but actually enabling that and encouraging that, um, is a really fascinating way to, to think about it, to. To create, to create those connections rather than just the experience of seeing the concert, but actually to create those connections. Um, and that's something you can do with, with the various pre-con lectures, or like you were saying with the, with the speed dating, um, with the musicians, which is, which is a really cool idea.

Luke Lyons: 17:48

even something, as you've mentioned, like having the instrument farm, you know, there, before the symphony, you know, there's, I've spoken to a lot of people who, you know, everyone jokes that like, oh, you know, you're just blowing horn blowing air in your horn, or, you know, you're just pulling a bow across. The thing is it's not that hard. I think having, you know, that interactive experience where you can go and kind of see almost like the gymnastics that are involved in playing these instruments, uh, for yourself before you set foot in the hall, it creates that connect, that like personal connection where you're like, oh, wow, okay. I've held that instrument. I know what that feels like. And look at, look how fast they're playing. Wow. You know, it kind of like makes it a little bit more real and a little bit more personal, an experience versus just, yep. There's a lady playing the violin on the stage, you know, but never having held that. Physically for yourself and seeing what that's like, you know, there's a connect, a misconnection there that really could open the door for someone's curiosity.

David Taylor: 18:52

Totally. And, um, a brand new idea off the back of what you were saying. So thank you for the, the inspiration, um, taking the idea of the rugby, uh, scenario, where there were these little challenges of like throwing as many balls through a hoop as possible. Why not have like a breast challenge of like, you must blow a note for as long as possible to have a scoreboard, and then you realize that you could only do it for 10 seconds, but my God ballot, person's doing it for like 45. How on earth can they do with this superhuman? And then I was like, you can have a score table. And then like that level of investment or understanding it breaks things down in a way that's, that's really fascinating. I think there's, as you say, there's so much committing to really explore that and give you a. And understanding, not from being told in an lecture format, but from really getting your hands onto an instrument and trying an understanding that like a violin under your neck for more than five seconds is really quite painful. And what does that actually look like? And yeah, just more touch points for people to really understand and engage and, um, A conversation. I, I kept, or a theme I kept having in conversations with, with chief execs who run orchestras, was that audiences come to our concerts because they love our musicians. And realistically, we're really crap showing who our musicians are or finding any touch points for connecting to them in any way, shape or form. There are a black and white anonymous blob on stage and they disappear and then we never actually know who they are or, or anything. And if you've got a concert program, there's no chance you can work out which name is which person anyway, but this way, like things like that, you would get to like, oh, that's the person who showed me how to like blow a note or to, um, to do percussion or snare roll or these different things. Um, and like, I think going full circle back to this, being a podcast about conducting, there is so much, um, fascination about what a conductor does, which is a huge value and huge interest and anything that can, can share that or demonstrate it or explain it, or have those touch points I think is, is really fascinating. And. I I'd say conductors are by far the biggest ambassadors for the orchestra. And that role has changed over time from, from what was mysterious, my culture to being full on ambassador culture. Like you have to be a figure head of organization. Now, um, there was one orchestra I was talking to recently where I have to be careful how I say this, cuz you can probably work out who is if you're, uh, a much that much detective, but their, their conductor isn't on any form of social media and is one of those people who lives outside of technology and they'd just been appointed. And the conversation in the orchestra was that, um, we want 'em to do social media. How do we do this for them? And realistically, like that's never gonna work. And also why would you appoint someone who's not gonna connect to audiences for you? Like it's not a, a 1970s orchestra. This is a 2020s orchestra. Of course they should have social media. It makes complete sense. Uh, we have to have those touchpoints for people. And that's where we build relationships going way back to your point about, yeah, there we go. Instrument experiments. So like displaying those solutions around, conducting how people will try. That could be a really fascinating way of doing it.

Jeremy Cuebas: 21:45

Mm-hmm well,

Luke Lyons: 21:46

mean, even, even like, you know, showing an example of like, what does a conductor do? You know, have an audience before a concert, you know, put some like some basic rhythms up and try to have them clap, you know? And all of a sudden it's like trying to get an entire room of people to do the same thing. All of a sudden becomes a really big challenge. And so right there, you're able to demonstrate that, you know, yeah, there might be music on a page and we all might have the same music, but getting everybody together to do that simultaneously together. Com with, you know, complete accuracy is not something that just anybody can do, you know, and it takes a lot of work and there is a purpose to that beyond just waving a stick and looking cool, you know?

David Taylor: 22:31

Yeah. That's the reason you get into it is to look cool, but then all the other things that come from it. But, um, but yeah, like again, like another way of getting those touch points, I think I love the idea of rhythms and that's a wonderful way of, of, of doing it. Uh, another idea. From you who you're talking like, for me, if I was young or even if I was old and the idea of learning about conducting and trying, but with like four, like a quartet of the musicians in front of me and going, I did stuff, I knew what happened when, like I moved my arm and they did things and I could go and tell my friends about that. And God, that's a meaningful experience. And every time I go back, I will see those musicians. Um, so yeah, I think anything that is just like, I think we're in an industry that doesn't really experiment or try things out and just see how it goes. And a lot of the ideas were just like bounced off are low cost or free. And why would we not want to just do weird stuff and see like how we can really sort of share our craft and our passion and our music with others.

Jeremy Cuebas: 23:26

Yeah. Well, we keep it all behind the screen, like where everything's from rehearsal and we get it. Perfect. And then we come out and we don't make any mistakes. And it's just, I mean, that's just, that's just the part of our art that, that, I mean, like the opposite is, is Andy Warhol, like just. His, his like totally emotional, not technical throwing paint is the exact opposite of what we tend to do. But that's, I mean, maybe that's because we have to be so technical to allow the emotion and the connection to be done well, but, um, I mean, as conductors, we have the ability to talk from the stage and musicians just never even just having musicians talk from the stage would make such a difference because you're right. They're up on the stage, they're separated and then they,

David Taylor: 24:16

Yeah,

Jeremy Cuebas: 24:16

they come back and then they

David Taylor: 24:19

I'd go as far. Like, this is definitely deliberately provocative, but I'd say go as far to say, as that's rude. And can you imagine a band going out and like, be like under silence, not saying like, hello Glastonbury or like hello LA or like. Not a word and just playing and walking off and assuming your applause is mad. Um, so I don't see why we do it now. And especially when, like the environment we have, isn't our historical environment. If we had period audiences in the same, we have periods performances, they would be Rous. There'd be shouting. There'd be people throwing glasses on the stage. It'd be absolutely can. So I'm not, it's strange that we've created this, like, um,

Jeremy Cuebas: 24:56

that's artificial. It's

David Taylor: 24:58

It's like a snow globe. Yeah, it really isn't. So, um, I, I know I'm like deliberately on one side of the spectrum where it is like, there are no rules everything's up for grabs, but I think anything just humanizes our experience. And why would you not want to talk to your audience is mad. And then again, back to idea of conductors, um, speaking is now such a huge part of the role, which it never was historically. 20 years ago, I'd say, but the ability to speak to children, to adults, to donors, which is also another part of the role now to media, um, it's a huge skill. And I think we, we don't give enough credit for the fact that it is a skill that you learn you can get better at. And people just assume that you're like either a magician at these things and you can do all of them, or you'll never be able to speak to someone ever. Um, so yeah, I think that's a really fascinating part that how that role's changed. I'd probably say that's changed more than any of the role in the orchestra. Actually. Now I'm thinking

Jeremy Cuebas: 25:51

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Luke Lyons: 25:53

I did a workshop with a conductor when I first started conducting. And he, he said that, uh, it. The job was 10% conducting and 90% networking. And, you know, uh, it, it's crazy to think about the fact that that's kind of the reality of the situation though. Uh, especially nowadays, is that you do have to spend so much time, like, as you said, social media, having a presence on social media and knowing how to navigate all that, you know, that's a marketable skill that's, you know, looked at and, uh, kind of expected of younger conductors these days, you know, and that has nothing to do with music at all.

David Taylor: 26:35

Totally. I'm. Orchestras are quite easy to work out and venues are quite easy to work out when you sort of boil everything down to its, its its finest point, which is they want to make money and they want to sell tickets. Um, and those are potentially different things cuz the idea of having donors is a big part of that. So anything that you can do that can demonstrate value that helps them on their journey of making money is gonna be a huge value, whether it is donors, media, prestige, working with young people, cause that attracts funding from, um, foundations and things, all these different things or um, being a box office hits and being able to like bring audiences in is, is a huge part. Um, so I think that's now got to be a consideration that you don't necessarily have to have all of those, but making sure that you are aware of, uh, developing the skills to be able to do some or if not just one of those is gonna be I think a huge value to able to demonstrate value because, um, there are enough really, really good conductors out there. So the, actually the ability to like define like who you are, how you provide value to that orchestra and why you are the right person for that orchestra, I thinks really important going forwards.

Jeremy Cuebas: 27:35

Yeah. Yeah. Can you share some things that you've tried that didn't quite work?

David Taylor: 27:44

Yeah. Um, I'm gonna have a think cause I'm one of the sort of person who rolls on the punches quite well and tends not to think backwards. So it's not that I haven't done things and haven't tried it's I'm, I've got a lot better. Just shaking it off. Um, yes. Uh, one of, so my, my weird journey into all of this was running a youth orchestra, uh, and that was created from scratch. And we were really good at being successful of getting a lot of media coverage and different things. Um, but one of our recruitment tools was to put like a masterclass in that series. And the idea that these master classes were free, people could come. Uh, and that would be like, you've now discovered us aren't we amazing. You should come and join our orchestra and for love or money, I could not get anyone to come to these things. And like, um, one of them was with like a very famous clarinetist and that was like getting blood out of a stone to get anyone to go to it. And I think it was one of the things like right idea, wrong place, or just like wrong format, wrong way of connecting people. Uh, and that was a challenge. Um, there are definitely more of those. I will keep thinking. We may have to circle back

Jeremy Cuebas: 28:50

Yeah.

David Taylor: 28:51

there was definitely more in there.

Luke Lyons: 28:52

Well, but you, you just made a really good point though about the fact that just, you know, just because it didn't work out there doesn't mean it wouldn't work out somewhere else, but that all goes back to having to have the, you know, the knowledge of where you're working and who you're working with. And you know, what kind of, what what's the population like there as far as like, is this even something that these kinds of people would be interested in?

David Taylor: 29:17

Totally. And I think actually programming is probably a really good example of that and that what sells in New York isn't necessarily gonna sell in, uh, rural Yorkshire where I'm based. And like, even in the UK, like if you move two cities, the audience appetite changes massively. So programs will completely differ, which is always a massive challenge. Um, but yeah, and then that's also project wise the way your audience works. There's, there's lots of things around there. Um, I like the idea of experimenting and finding out because you get really rapid feedback, uh, and it's really tempting to play things safe. Um, I know it's easier said than done. And from going back like my organization, like if things went wrong, I would be bankrupt. So I, I appreciate there's like actual, genuine, real life stresses in these scenarios. Um, but I think it, it, having that experiment is, is quite interesting. There's someone who a cellist is called Jamie Walton? Who runs a music festival relatively nearby by to me. Um, and he puts on some, it's the middle of rural, rural Yorkshire. Like there are fields for, for miles around it, and it's just farmers and no classical music history audience there, but puts on like this, this summer festival with mad programming and we'll do like four concerts back to back of Schoenberg sort of territory where like, this is like the appetite here is like the most cheesy of cheesy, like popular hits type scenario. And he tells a story of one of the farmers coming up to him afterwards, like after a Schubert concert. And it's like, I hated every second of that. I'll see you next week. And like he had that buy-in, they're like people will just come and try stuff and if they hate it, that's fine. They'll come back. Cause they like it as an experiment or whatever it is. And that's quite a journey to get to. But I think getting to those points of, with your audience where they're that comfortable experimenting with you is, um, a wonderful goal to have.